Well I had a whole post written today ready to publish tonight, but an item on whales on CE made me so uppity and mad, I just had to change it to this one instead...
Pick one of the following statements as True and one as False.
1. Whales were originally sea creatures that came out of the sea, lived on land for a while and then decided that they preferred the sea and went back.
2. A man once spent 3 days inside a whale and survived, even though today's scientists say it's impossible.
Some questions for you:
Did you see either one happen?
Do you know someone who saw either one happen?
Is there actual physical evidence for either one?
What drove your choice?
What made you go for one rather than the other?
I guess you know where I'm going with this.
I contend that what drove your choice, what drives my choice and what drives everyone's choice is faith. Pure and simple, faith.
If you can only choose one as true, then you either believe in evolution or you believe in God.
There are of course two other possible positions where you could believe neither or both statements. But it still all comes down to faith.
No eye witnesses still around to ask. No physical evidence.
Take your pick, but don't make the mistake of thinking that you have science on your side, whichever position you take. It's just down to what you believe.
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50 comments:
Wow moose good post and so true, we are all swayed by want we believe and /or what we have been brought up to be believe in by our parents – right from wrong etc…
I will have to pop over the other side to see what got you so much. I will do that next.
Apologies for being quite again – I am currently out in Canada, in the snow and cold and it’s amazing. I have never experienced so much snow before (sorry this is he child in me coming out), but as I travel into work over here or make a journey, I cannot help but think that if this was the UK, we would be ground to a halt!
Anyway, must catch up on other pieces as well as see what is posted on the other side. Will try and check in later this week if I can.
T
great post moose. got me thinking this morning am now confused...
as you may expect, i am in the school of evolution. I am spiritual and have faith but (is this a contradiction) i challenge it constantly because i dont believe (for me) that total acceptance of something is necessarily the best thing.
However, in respect of evolution and proof or otherwise, are not scientific research into the land/earth/soil sufficient proof of history... what about fossils, bones from animals and men from millions of years ago...... i accept that it is belief that suggests to us that our 'scientific' proof of evolution is solid but - what more proof do we need....
Am i confusing issues? Have i fallen in to the trap??
this isnt a challenge to your post moose, just interested in your views - its a subject that fascinates me.
xx
Great post moose,
I understand you linking this all to faith. I am not sure the faith you talk of is necessarily in a religious way, as it need not be. For one to have faith is to believe without question what someone is saying. This could indeed be the wise words of a radio DJ, man of the cloth, friend or parent.
Have we (for those who are) as parents never told tales and our kids just accept them as the truth? Why do we think they believe in Santa, tooth fairies and the like?
Although not me I am sure somewhere in this mad world we live in someone is telling a story today of how a man survived for three days inside a whale because he/she believed the tale with out a thought that it may just be a total myth?
Storytelling has been around for as long as records exist, if our ancestors had never challenged stories would we still believe the world is flat?
Sorry that I can't join in with the fun today.
I was walking across the road today when I saw a vicar. For no reason at all, I decided to throw a bottle of Domestos over him.
The police have charged me with a bleach of the priest!
Keith the BigUn
xx
Twixt rock and a hard place. Whatever makes you feel right is true to yourself.
If you've read Angels & Demons by Dan Browne there's a similar type of argument that runs through the book.
I come from the school of, "Whatever your mind can truly believe it can acheive". Maybe it's about time I started to truly beileive that I'm not destined for a life of singledom.
Good blog Moose!
Luv
Lyndyloo
-x-x-x-
Hi Moose
Four things have happened today already which are out of the usual. The boy got up with no prompting. I have been serenaded at work. I was shown a picture which is SO like the person it could be, all I could do was laugh and laugh. I have had my mind twisted by someone else in ways I can usually only do to myself.
Moose, it HURTS me to try to consider your puzzle because every time I try to, I end up in circles...either of these could be empirical, either could be derived from experience or experiment, so either could be true or false.
Just for the record, I went for the second one because the whale takes in food, water and oxygen, which is what a human needs to survive, so even though today's scientists say it's impossible - why is it?
Kindest regards from a triple salcho flex knot reef grubber...
Time for toast
love
hazel
x
ps Could someone fetch a boy scout please?
Moose,
It's a tough one today. I can't decide! And this from someone who would tell you they have strong faith.
I do believe anything is possible and I don't need actual proof to believe in God .... well, as far as I can see there is proof every day - in our children, in stories that we hear of miracles that DO happen.
I wish I could go for a lie down!
C xx
Yes,
But I still think the Mother Ship will come back.
DWNB
Moose - I have a faith in something when I look at the miracle that is nature and I also HAVE faith in my partner/friends/family to do the right thing etc, etc and I thought I had the answer sewn up until I got a call from a friend of mine 15 mins ago to tell me that our beautiful mutual friend had just passed away. Sorry to be a downer but right now I'm not sure where any faith comes into things!
not quite so jollygit xx
Jollygit,
So sorry to hear about your friend. It's a nightmare to lose someone you care about and I do agree that when something like this happens, your faith in anything and everything goes out the window.
It's easy for me to say, but everything happens for a reason and it just must have been your friend's time.
Wish I could say something comforting.
C xx
Thanks Moose, what a brilliant blog today!
I am in the school of believing both. At the same time, I do think that the Old Testament of the Bible shows huge artistic licence in parts but the stories therein are compelling. I think faith in God is a fabulous thing to have. I re-found my faith 4 years ago and feel I am a much nicer and calmer person now.
Jollygit – faith wavers at times and death is always a low point – I am so sorry for your loss. You will find your way and your faith will be restored. You are in my prayers.
Amanda x
Chrissis S and Amanda - bless you both. She had been ill but seemed to be recovering so it was such a shock to get the news and it's thrown me somewhat.
My faith has been tested in the past and it's always returned, albeit slightly battered, and I'm sure there's something to hang on to even now.
Thanks again xx
Jollygit,
So sorry for your loss...
Not sure if it helps, but a wise acquaintance once described a human life as a short breath in and out, in comparison to eternity.
When we think of our short time here as everything, it sets certain expectations. When we see it in (what I believe to be) true perspective versus eternity, there is little difference whether we live for 5 minutes or 100 years.
But that's hard for us to accept.
Anna,
My view (personal though it is) is that the so-called scientific evidence for evolution is rather less convincing than the evolutionists would have you believe. This is my bug bear - that a lot of stuff is taught as fact when it is not fact, but theory.
The language people use (like the whale guy on CE) is perjorative and backs up the illusion that they are facts. He said that the story of Jonah was just not true, stated as a fact. The real fact is he doesn't know. And I don't know either. I believe it happened and he believes it didn't. But when he says he knows it as a fact, he's lying.
Just one example to illustrate...When Mount St Helens blew in the 80's it dumped a load of landslip debris into the valley. In the course of the following couple of years, stratification and structures of rock and river valleys were produced that baffled the geologists, because they had always said these features ALWAYS took millions of years to form.
And another...there are many examples that are skated over, in particular the mechanism of evolution. So even if a whale did "walk", how did it develop the legs. The answer is always "they evolved that way". But how? The eye of a fly is a great example - it's so complex, there are no intermediary stages that were viable or useful. So how did it evolve. No-one knows. No-one has ever seen evolution happen.
The variation we observe in species is almost invariably negative. The "freak" whale that sprung legs would have died and never reproduced (out of water the whale's body weight would cause it's lungs to be crushed and it would suffocate - as they do when beached). The first ape to "evolve" into a human would have no-one to mate with and would have died...etc etc. The chances of the deviation happening once is big enough, but for a breeding pair to happen in the same time at the same place? That calls for a lot of luck or a lot of faith.
I know and accept that I have a faith position. I just think that evolutionism is a faith position too - the only difference between me and the evolutionists is that they usually won't admit it! And I think that is dishonest.
I've been doing a Gaby. I've written and deleted that many times today...I've been dickering about...I really am in knots. I would like to put this forward however.
I feel as if I am playing 'Devil's Avocado' but here goes...splash!
I once was a single cell organism. Then for some reason I split. These two halves of cell grew into cojoined but separate cells. These two cells split, and grew into cojoined but separate cells...&c. &c.are you getting this?
If you take 'the miracle of birth' (once the conception and fertilisation has taken place), couldn't this be a type of 'evolution', modelled on the amphibian thingie, but speeded up really really fast? One day I started with gills and fins, and ended up with ears and arms.
Later the same day.
In my opinion, the only animal which appears to have had little or no evolution at all is the Earthworm.
Why we call it the 'Humble Earthworm' I have no idea...but hermaphrodite is surely the way to go if you are going to evolve at all...
...just in case you never, ever find another 'you'?
Vive le worm
love
hazel
x
OMG!! (thanks DWNB!)
I'm in pole position next door! Quick, blink and you'll miss it...
That is probably (although hopefully not) the only good thing that is going to happen to me today. I do have faith, and hope things are going to get better, perhaps this is a sign?
told you.
You blinked didncha!
Sorry Hazel Love! Didn't mean to usurp you next door!
Amanda x
Moose - thank you xx
Jollygit.
Sorry to hear about your news.
I don't do religion.
I'm not quite sure what it is I 'do'. I think I'm still searching for my answer, or even the right road that I should travel on in order to find it.
In short, I'm confused. Always have been.
My upbringing was pretty secular, although my mother and I share a thirst for knowledge that often trips into the theological.
Whilst I don't believe in God or Gods, I do feel 'spiritual'. That probably makes no sense and I can't really explain it myself.
Maybe one day it'll all fall into place.
I need a lie down now.
MfR
After reading #12 next door, I'm very glad I kept my news over here, amongst friends.
MfR - thank you xx
jollygit x
I noticed that one of those nasty boys who don't wash properly and who always seem to bunk off school was hanging around by the gates again.
Shall I go and get Mrs Milligan?
Or shall we try and scare him away ourselves?
MfR - Just ignore him and he will go away again. Mrs Milligan has been on the 'sauce' again at lunch and you know what she's like a couple of hours later. It could all go horribly wrong!
Amanda x
Hey Jollygit,
I've posted a bit of a naughty one...regarding something
'saccarine' (sic) I'd like to do for the boy today. Whether it makes it through the BP net shall appear in the f of t...we shall see.
I was going to welcome J back as he/she (wishes obviously to remain anonymous because he/she doesn't seem to be like a very nice person) had been missed, but I didn't.
I also used the correct spelling of 'saccharine'. Now I'm feeling a bit better.
MfR, there is another film from the grassy knoll just been released by some amateur photographer. There is another slant to the story regarding bullet holes in JFK's coat...just thought you may be interested.
Jollygit, you are too right babe! Keep and remember all your smiles for your friend, and we're here too xx
AS, I hope one of your childrens favourite half term activities is collecting giant wood spiders in lidless jamjars and bringing them home...(insert Pantomime Baddie laugh here)
AND A BIG PS THE ROAD TAX/TRACKING PETITION CLOSES AT MIDNIGHT TONIGHT. If you haven't signed it and you want to, this is the link http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/traveltax/ and please pass it on to everyone you can. To this moment in time there are 1,707,134 signatures...
Hazel Love - you are naughty and let's hope your post gets through!!! I wrote, then deleted, at least four replies to 'J' and then gave up and just had some nasty thoughts about him/her instead!!!! I knew I could rely on you hon, thanks!!
MfR - have you still got your catapult from schooldays? We could chuck stones at that horrible person out there!!
I've signed the Road Tax/Tracking petition already but if it will let me do it again, then I sure will.
jollygit xx
Hazel
I saw the JFK news.
Apparently the footage is already on a conspiracy site so I will try and watch it later.
I stood on the grassy knoll (not in November 63 alas) and the amazing thing is how small the whole area is.
I could go on about this all day.
But I won't.
Later
MfR
Hazel Love,
LOL - re the spiders - can see the look on their faces when I suggest it!!!! Eldest is scared of his own shadow, youngest would go for it but put the jar under eldests pillow - cue mass hysteria in the house!!!! Even funnier - my hubby does a mean pantomime baddie laugh so you really made me chuckle!
In future I promise to stay away from CE until you have appeared. I don't really post very often (hardly at all in fact) but his words struck me today - as did Moose's. I think I am coming out of winter hibernation and stamping on everyone's feet in the process.
Sorry......
Am going back into the treehouse now as it has got a bit chilly....
Amanda x
Hazel Love - you're on next door !!!
jollygit x
(World) Domination is MINE (insert Amanda's husband here) (stroke pussy and spin around in chair)
It's there, it got through, I hoped it was suitably innocuous, and it's THERE!
...and Amanda, it's so rare these days that the VIth Form let me post at all, so don't ever wait, because I expect I'll be outside Mr Butters' office (avac les autres) in the Naughty Corridor.
BORN FREE! LIVE FREE!
By one get one free
love
hazel
x
Hazel
Steady on tiger! (other feline references are clearly available).
I am tempted to start a fight next door too, but I shall be ever so grown up and bite my lip (or sit on my hand - whatever the blog version of a dignified silence is).
And it is far more fun to poke fun from here.
That way no-one gets hurt and Chris won't threaten to take his ball home so we can't play anymore.
MfR
Tiger will do for now Mr Rudgwick, and I'm SO sorry, but I can't let bad spelling go...it's too irrisistable...and quite apart from anything else, we may never get another post through between us! As mentioned previously, I am resorting to postcards in local telephone boxes.
BUT...the irony is, I mean MY boy, and 'they' may think I mean CE woo ha ha ha ha etc etc
I do however agree with you regarding the hand sitting, and consider myself duly chastised, if a little fidgety and uncomfortable.
amore
Pussies Galore!
ps What do you think they mean by 'full fat version of blogging or schlogging or whatever it is.'
So this is where all the saccarine went
Just kidding...it's me really.
Moose
:-)
Oh you antlered wag!
You had me all worried then you bad Moose!
You're a naughty naughty boy who deserves a spank. (Other punishments are available - please see cards for details and tariff)
Nice one Moose!
Amanda x
Re J's unecessary comment next door:
Do you think 'full fat version of blogging or schlogging or whatever it is.' means asking the bbc to accommodate J's need to watch Master Chef Goes Large but listen to CE as well?
Had anyone noticed that J was having a silent protest in order to reclaim 'full fat version of blogging or schlogging or whatever it is.'
Does anyone really care?
Amanda x
{{{{Hugs to Jollygit}}}}
with additional saccharine - and lots of it!
Really am going back to treehouse now!
XxX
Tee hee.
I'm on the way to collect my punishment!!!
I need to stop off at the gym on the way, so I may be some time...
Slept about 2 hours last night, and had to be in for a 7am meeting with the "stiffed" guy. The classic quote from the meeting this morning was: "You're not being much help in these meetings."
Shall I get my coat then?
Moose, you take it too much to heart babe...perhaps all Mr Stiff wanted was help dishing out the coffees...
Bring your leather pants.
Two whales, a male and female, were swimming along off the coast of Japan, when they saw a whaling ship approaching. The male whale recognized it as the same ship that had harpooned and killed his father many years earlier.
He said to the female whale "Let's swim under the boat and blow out of our air holes at the same time and try to turn it over and sink it."
So they tried it and sure enough, the ship turned over and sank. However the whales noticed the crew had jumped overboard and were swimming to the safety of the shore.
The male was furious that the whale killers were going to get away and said to his mate "Let's swim after them and eat them before they reach the shore." Then he realized the female wasn't following. "What's the matter?" he asked....................
"I was up for the blowjob, but I'm not swallowing the seamen," she replied.
Evening all. well havent had chance to look next door to see what the kerfuffle is about, off there next. In between opening a bottle of posh red pop and sticking my potato dauphinoise in the oven.
Moose - loved your response to my queries. I have to say it is the most convincing theory i have had in my hunt to a definitive answer to this question. Having said that, Hazel did then remind me of my reason for believing the evolution theory.
I suppose in part i think that all things faith/belief/spiritual/religous are part of our journey of discovery and where you are on the path of enlightenment depends on where you stand in terms of religion... or not. Christ (other religious figures are available) only knows (we should definately ask him!) what course the path should take, where we all are on it and how long it takes. Will i need new shoes? Suffice to say, i love that people can talk about it openly, honestly and with conviction. thank you!
jollygit - no words can help when you lose someone, however, what i will say is that i like to think that we all move on to something/somwhere different, but are still in essence around. Your friend will always be with you in your heart. x
going to drop in on next door and see what you scallys have been up to.
Ill be back.
hmm. been next door, seen whats going off. posted a little note.
must say, like Chris but sometimes wonder - is he really loving life..... or is it all just an escape mechanism. I know someone who loves to travel all over the countryside revelling in the joy that nature brings him.... so much so that he panics if he cant get out and enjoy fresh air, wild animals and amazing views. He has physical reactions to the lack of 'soul food' as he describes it.
I know him very well, have done for 17 years now. Methinks he is reacting like that cos he isnt happy in his own skin and not getting out means he cant divert attention from himself....
anyway, red pop is breathing, mountain of work to do. calamine cream to wash of the man cubs clothes and a 10am presentation to prepare for.
see you all later
x
Evening all
Just checked out the 'new' JFK footage and guess what?
Nothing groundbreaking.
Except.
The film covers just a few seconds as the motorcade comes up Elm before turning into Dealey Plaza. JFK's jacket is sort of hunched up on his shoulders, nothing dramatic in that, apart from the bullet holes in the jacket were key to determining the angles from which the shots came, so if the jacket was 'skewhiff' (sorry, couldn't think of a better word), then perhaps the conclusions are too.
But then we all think that anyway.
Curiously, the photographer then lingers on the school book depository for his last shots and then pans up to the sixth floor!
Well, it excited me, anyway.
Ta ta
MfR
Anna - you're absolutely right, thank you xx
Amanda - the hugs were lovely - bring on the saccharine!!!
Moose - thank you for making me LOL today of all days - your post was wicked!!
You lot are just great over here so {{{hugs}}} to you all and I'll see you tomorrow.
jollygit xx
I didn't hear the article in question but I think i get the gist of what you mean.
So.............
Well said Moose!!!
I am a firm believer and send my children to a school that teaches the bible and the 'God created us' philosophy. I see miracles and prayers answered every day. Well done for using the opportunity to provide a forum for this debate - very brave in our current climate in the UK.
Not so Jollygit - I am really sorry for your loss. I genuinely hope your friend is at peace now. it is always so much harder for those of us left behind.
x x x x x
hey everyone
sorry i couldn't join in today..first jollygit - sorry to hear your news..remember the good times with your friend, smile and rejoice her life.{{{jillygoat}}}
Moose, whales - I thought 2nd, but what a hard slog! dark and smelly with the added worry you may get blown out!
All I can say is how do you get to w(h)ales in a mini?.
either 1 in the front 1 in the back
Or
over the new severn crossing, unless there's high winds when you have to go through gloucester
Oh, and moose the disguise as J was funny too! What a wag you are Ho, Ho, Ho....are you cross with me? Please advise?
Now i'm off to the other side to look at what i've missed.
off to gym tomorrow, then a treat facial at 11, then loose women at 12.30-1.30 so a v.v. quick look in on all of you after 1.30 before i have to leave to pick up the child at 3.
Have a great day everyone
Love caroline x
I'm not sure about Anna and Hazel, but I rather think the conception and fertilization bit is quite exciting too!!!
I guess my view is that the development of a foetus in a predictable way, miraculous as I wholeheartedly agree it is, leads to the propagation of the same species. Any deviation usually results in a lack of reproductive capability or death or both (see Darwin Awards...) It has never, as far as I know, been observed to lead to a new species. The closest example I know of is the butterflies (or was it moths?) in Birmingham in the 1800's. They were all white and turned black because of the pollution. The offspring were born black. However I think they were still genetically identical to the white ones and could not therefore properly be called a new species. Not totally sure of my "facts" there...did you notice?
Sorry, probably laboured the point a bit far now...time for a new blog. How about the delayed one from yesterday???
It'll be up later...probably after Life on Mars.
Caroline,
Not cross...what have I done to make you think I am? Sorry for whatever it is.
Whatever I did, whatever I said, I didn't mean it...
Oh and Cathmel...it's nothing personal about you, but I'm afraid I will have to refuse to put your photo on the blog. You're OK, it's the (my humble opinion) EXPLETIVE DELETED next to you that's the problem!!!
You all know how I feel about him...
Hey Moose
Hope all is well my friend.
I hope I haven't sent myself permanently to Coventry for my musical taste and theological views.
My JFK obsession must count for something!
I haven't given up complete hope for the OAMC, so what say we stick our necks out and propose a 'weekend' (arggh!) get together sometime in March?
(I mean a Friday or Saturday night, not a whole weekend).
If that fails, then it is game over.
Ideas anyone?
Later
MfR
Who the heck is next to Cathmel????
We should be told!
MfR
Matt,
You're forgiven...
Keep the conspiracy theories going. We all love 'em.
Friday/Saturday pretty much always impossible for me I'm afraid. I was planning on going for the 3rd week again in March. What do you think?
And how's the book going?
...and it was Russell Brand!
Ugh...
Off to heat up some rice pudding.
Oh, I almost forgot, but thought I'd better say this, just in time to say it out loud, but too late to influence anyone...
I know it makes me unpopular but...
I think road pricing is a good idea in principle. Needs to be carefully worked up in the detail, but we don't go anywhere near close enough to price the damage to the environment in everything we do. And while I know that India and China present a huge threat in comparison, but I am also a believer that every little helps (sort of comes with the territory).
So needless to say, I didn't sign the petition. And I live in the country, depend on 2 cars, and drive about 30,000 miles a year, so it is going to cost me big time.
Oh how I love to go against the flow!!!
moose - boo hiss. contraversial..... oh ok, you are entitled to your opinion..... tho i do think that we already pay per mile in petrol. I actually am starting to think that city centre congestion charges may be worth a re-look - tho better planned than the london ones.....maybe i make myself unpopular with this idea!!
looking forward to new blog, but nice one today moose. interesting discussion.
been working - not payed attention to LoM. must try harder.
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